negative cutting & frame counter

[mattias]

hi, i'm ready to give negative (well, positive) cutting a try on this super 8 short i'm currently editing. i'm editing on video in fcp, and will generate an edl of roll and frame numbers (i've developed and successfully tried this process already).

now, to correctly match my super 8 footage to this edl, i need a frame counter, so in addition to telling you what i'm up to, i also want to know where i can find one. i have a standard accessory shoe on my hanimex editor that i guess i'm supposed to fit one in, but i haven't been able to locate one. a separate unit would work well too of course--perhaps even better since i reduce the risk of scratches if i remove the viewer from the process. any ideas?

also, should i add extra frames around each edit to avoid visible splices? i'm blowing up the original to 35 mm and/or transferring it to video, and from what i've heard, it's easy to skip those extra frames in the optical printer (at interformat for example), and certainly easy to remove them from digital video. or should i just splice very carefully and live with the jumps?

/matt

[MovieStuff]

Hi, Mattias!

First off, the Werker splices suck when they're blown up. When Jet Benny was blown up at Interformat, they asked us to change the Ciro splices to Werker splices and they jumped all over the place for each edit. Still makes me mad when I see it. Now, I just remembered that I used Ciro splices on a short that Interformat blew up for me prior to Jet Benny and they never asked me to change THOSE splices and that looked pretty good, if I remember. I'll have to dig it out because I frankly don't remember! Also, the short was pretty much totally hand held with lots of action, so that may have masked the jumps, so the Ciro may not have worked any better. I'll look and see (if I can dig out the film!)

As far as the "skip splice" method goes, I recommend it, though they will charge you more. A friend did that on a short he did and it worked just great. Of course, you have to use your imagination on how it will look.

-OR-

Use a WorkPrinter to transfer your spliced film to video and cut out the extra frames to see what it will look like before sending to Interformat!
(You didn't really think I'd let you get off without a sales pitch, did you?)

Seriously, a trial transfer of some kind could be done to see what it would look like after removal of the extra frames. If you can avoid the splices, do it. They are aggrivating everytime I see them.

Roger

[Matt Pacini]

I really recommend using cement splices.
I used Hervic splices on Lost Tribes, and they were great, because they cover only two frames, and are really strong, but any tape splice is going to cause problems in telecine or blowup, because you're introducing a physically thicker area for the transport to deal with.
They are WAY cheaper to make also.
People underestimate this cost when they shoot. (I certainly did).
I figured I spent over $2500 on tape splices alone!
The cement ones obviously hold better, and if you're going to add extra frames, then it's OK that you're making permanent splices.
I was in Christies Editorial in Burbank once, and they have this back warehouse area with tons of used film equipment.
They had a Super 8 frame counter.
This was a couple years ago, so who knows if they still have it.
But they might, or know where you can get one.

Matt Pacini

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[MovieStuff]

Hi, Matt!

I think you forgot the decimel point! "$2,500" in tape splices? I could imaging $250.00 worth, but $2,500? That's a lot of tape splices!

Beyond that, cement splices on Super 8 aren't as strong as tape splices because of the reduced surface area for the cement splice. I think Rank houses prefer tape splices to the cement for super 8, but I could be wrong.

It also gets down to how the film is being reproduced. If you're pulling a contact print and want invisible splices, then AB rolling off of cement spliced film is fine because the cement splice is hidden in the black area of the opaque leader separating every other cut. However, if you aren't AB rolling and want invisible splices, then I think the Ciro splices work best. They cover only a single frame on either side of the cut and virtually disappear when contact printed with no jump what so ever. My contact print on Jet Benny has flawless edits with no signs of tape or splices. The blow up, however, is splice city.

Mattias, did you consider setting up your film as an A/B roll for blow up? That would solve your "visible splice" problems. I don't know which they would charge more for; skipping the splices or doing a A/B run.

Roger

[This message has been edited by MovieStuff (edited September 30, 2001).]

[MovieStuff]

Hey, Mattias!

Found you a counter. A buddy of mine has one he'd let go for about $30 and I believe he takes PayPal. His email is

[email protected]

Roger

[#Pedro]

Mattias:
The best splices for S8 can be made with the Haman splicer and seperate press (cement). They are invisible and not thicker as the film itself. The Haman cutter cuts the film precisely in one step (without any grinding/dust) and the press splices the two ends with cement.
For frame counting, you can use a mechanical counter at the viewer (I have a erno/goko model from www.wittner.de). But better is a electronic counter, directly mounted inside the viewer. In Germany, the company Gebuhr is selling semi-new Erno/Goko motor viewers with electronic counter and external motor control. That gives the possibility to count frames and to control the speed of the viewer according to a master source (perfo tape, fullcoat, crystal generator, pulse synchro track...) to ease sound editing.
Perdro

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[mattias]

thanks a lot everybody. i'm doing the transfer to pal video via a "video sync control unit," a two bladed shutter and a condenser lens. it should be the second best method available -- at least that's what they say at the place that will do it for me. i will splice the original with my usual agfa tape splices and leave 6 (3+3) frames at each edit, and i will get a frame counter from somewhere, maybe from roger's friend. wish me luck, and i'll let you know how it went.

/matt

[Scottness]

When I was getting the footage for In My Image ranked they specifically asked me to use tape not cement splices - because (I think) the extra thickness from the cement splices was a problem for them


Scot M

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[Matt Pacini]

Hey Roger, no I didn't get the decimal point wrong! It was $2,500!!!!!
I used Hervic splices, which are great, but expensive. I really didn't know what I'd spent, until I added it up after the film was done, which I think most people don't bother to do.
I have no idea if they like tape splices over cement splices for Rank, but I DID have some splices come off during transfer, mostly because the tension of the machine was too much for Super 8.
The guy ended up hooking rubber bands together to cut it down. Don't laugh, it worked!
Also, the Hervic splices also cover only two frames, which is great. You can't see the splices, except for one thing:
The tape splices cause a little "jump" in the image about a second before each edit, as the extra thickness goes through the machine.
I can't imagine that a cement splice would be any worse.
It certainly doesn't appear to be any thicker than the tape splices are, just looking at it.

Matt Pacini

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[Matt Pacini]

Also, I've always heard that cement splices are stronger than the non-spliced area???
I'm sure a bad cement splices isn't but a bad tape splices is going to come off easy too....


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